Third Party Therapy

podcast artwork

Podcast by Mike Day

Third Party Therapy

A bi-weekly podcast about the world of third party risk. Many of us are in the same position, facing ever evolving challenges, trying to keep up with new regulations and laws and it often feels like we are struggling to keep up. I want to really open up the conversation on this topic by speaking with practitioners to discuss key topics, understand what worked well and what went wrong, what people struggle with and to bring in ideas from other industries too. I’ll be asking the questions that folks may feel silly or uncomfortable asking too. So, why not join me for a series of informal interviews and discussions to really open up the conversation for the third party risk community?
Listen onApple Podcasts
Listen onSpotify
Listen onDeezer

Latest episodes

episode artwork

03 August 2026

Third Party Therapy - Julie Gaiaschi - Inside the TPRA: Building a Community for Third Party Risk

In this episode, Mike Day is joined by Julie Gaiaschi, CEO and co-founder of the Third Party Risk Association (TPRA), a non-profit, vendor-agnostic professional association for the third party risk management (TPRM) industry.

Julie shares how her career as an IT auditor and healthcare security practitioner led her to co-found a roundtable that grew from 15 companies to 125 in four meetings — and eventually became TPRA. She and Mike discuss:

  • How TPRM evolved from a procurement and compliance "check the box" function into a proactive, strategic risk management discipline
  • Why finance and healthcare led on TPRM maturity, and how retail and manufacturing have caught up post-COVID (including the Target/HVAC vendor breach as a catalyst)
  • The crossover between physical supply chain risk (manufacturing, pharma, automotive) and digital/cyber risk (SBOMs, AI-BOMs)
  • How TPRM as a profession has evolved — from an accidental, side-of-desk role to a recognised career path, and the rise of Chief Risk Officer functions
  • Geographic differences in TPRM maturity: the US and Europe (GDPR, DORA) leading, with Australia, Brazil, South Africa and China at earlier stages
  • Fourth-party and supply chain discovery tools, including mentions of Interos, Black Kite and Prompt Armor
  • TPRA's new AI-focused Trust Portal guidance, developed with a Third Party Advisory Committee of major tool providers, open for public comment until 3 July
  • TPRA's upcoming events: a free virtual conference (9 September), quarterly tool "demo days," a new event for consultants (September), and in-person events in Dallas (14–15 October) and London (10–11 November) in partnership with CeFPro
  • Julie's advice for anyone new to TPRM: download the free TPRM 101 Guidebook, learn your business, get involved in the community, and build cross-functional relationships early

Guest: Julie Gaiaschi, CEO & Co-Founder, Third Party Risk Association (TPRA) Host: Mike Day

Third Party Therapy is produced in association with CeFPro Connect.

🔗 Sign up to the mailing list at thirdpartytherapy.com 🔔 Subscribe for future episodes and hit like if you enjoyed this one

Chapter markers / timestamps

  1. Introduction and welcome
  2. Julie's background: IT audit → healthcare security → founding the TPRA roundtable
  3. Why finance and healthcare led on TPRM, and how retail/manufacturing caught up post-COVID
  4. Supply chain crossover: physical goods vs. services, SBOMs and AI-BOMs
  5. The professionalisation of TPRM: from procurement side-of-desk to Chief Risk Officer functions
  6. Where TPRM people come from, and the skills that matter most
  7. Geographic differences: US, Europe, Australia, Brazil, South Africa, China
  8. Technology landscape and fourth-party discovery tools (Interos, Black Kite, Prompt Armor)
  9. AI, resourcing, and moving TPRM "up the value chain"
  10. TPRA's Trust Portal guidance and Third Party Advisory Committee
  11. Upcoming TPRA events (virtual conference, demo days, Dallas, London)
  12. Lessons learned: advice for anyone new to TPRM
  13. Close and sign-off

00:00

45:04

episode artwork

13 July 2026

Third Party Therapy - Jeffrey Wheatman - Questionnaires, Scores and Shadow AI: Rethinking Third‑Party Cyber Risk

Mike Day is joined by Jeffrey Wheatman, Senior Vice President, Cyber Risk Strategist at Black Kite, for a wide-ranging conversation on third-party cyber risk management (TPRM). They cover why questionnaires alone are no longer enough, how dynamic monitoring and cyber risk quantification are changing vendor oversight, why storytelling is the key to getting business buy-in, and how AI — both as a business tool and an attacker's weapon — is reshaping the third-party risk landscape.

Guest

Jeffrey Wheatman, Senior Vice President, Cyber Risk Strategist at Black Kite. Previously spent 15 years as a research analyst at Gartner, built a security programme at Martha Stewart Omnimedia, and ran his own consulting practice. Joined Black Kite four years ago.

In this episode

  • [01:02] Jeffrey's route into cybersecurity — from managing a New York hardware store to Novell NetWare training, consulting, Martha Stewart Omnimedia, 15 years at Gartner, and now Black Kite.
  • [04:42] How third-party risk management has evolved: from contract/legal sign-off, to security questionnaires, to outside-in vendor scores, to today's risk-based, intelligence-led approach.
  • [07:11] Why not all vendors matter equally — tiering vendors so effort is focused on the ones that actually pose material risk.
  • [09:45] Two UK-rooted supply chain incidents: the KNP Logistics ransomware attack that put the firm out of business, and the Jaguar Land Rover cyberattack that reportedly affected UK GDP.
  • [11:17] Has the market moved beyond questionnaires? Financial services and insurance are further ahead; small niche vendors and giant vendors (e.g. Google) both present unique challenges.
  • [13:47] The case for cyber risk quantification — Black Kite's OpenFAIR-based model and the three risk scenarios it prioritises: data loss, ransomware, and vendor non-delivery.
  • [15:30] Translating cyber risk into business language: business impact analysis, stakeholder relationships, and a real anecdote about an aerospace manufacturer that stockpiled a critical component ahead of a supplier's ransomware attack.
  • [23:04] Jeffrey's simplified framing for engaging executives: money coming in, money going out, and who's accountable if something goes wrong.
  • [24:05] Scepticism around third-party risk scores, the case for methodology transparency ("open the raincoat"), and a credit-score analogy for contextualising vendor risk.
  • [28:00] The shift from "assess everyone, monitor a few" to "monitor everyone, assess dynamically" — including examples from a large retail customer monitoring 100,000 vendors and an insurer streamlining onboarding.
  • [30:00] Why questionnaires won't disappear entirely (audit and compliance still require them), and caution around AI-generated questionnaire responses and compliance reports.
  • [33:08] Discovering AI in the supply chain — shadow AI, the idea of an "AI Bill of Materials," and why AI adoption often bypasses IT-led vendor review (e.g. HR or marketing tools).
  • [40:01] A discussion of emerging agentic AI security research tools referenced in the episode, and concerns about a rising volume of reported vulnerabilities outpacing organisations' ability to triage them.
  • [43:47] Attack chaining — how several medium-severity vulnerabilities can be combined for privilege escalation, changing how vulnerabilities should be prioritised.
  • [46:47] A cautionary anecdote about a casino network reportedly compromised via an internet-connected aquarium thermostat.
  • [47:54] Where CISOs should prioritise investment: governance and clear ownership, business impact analysis, a defined vendor onboarding process, and continuous monitoring — illustrated with the Change Healthcare/UnitedHealthcare ransomware case.
  • [52:17] Regulatory pressure shaping third-party risk: DORA (EU/UK financial services), NIST, ISO, and HIPAA/NHS-equivalent requirements.
  • [53:28] Closing thoughts on AI and human-in-the-loop working, including a quote Jeffrey attributes to Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang about AI and jobs.

Notable quotes

  • "All vendors are equal. Some vendors are more equal than others." — Jeffrey Wheatman, paraphrasing Animal Farm
  • "Your business executives care about three things: money coming in, money going out, and if something goes wrong, who's in trouble." — Jeffrey Wheatman
  • "The biggest risk in communication is assuming it has taken place." — quoted by Jeffrey Wheatman, attributed to George Bernard Shaw
  • "Don't ask your vendors if they're using AI. They are. It's a matter of understanding what they're using it for." — Jeffrey Wheatman

00:00

55:38

episode artwork

29 June 2026

Third Party Therapy - Chloe Dellow - Walk Before You Run: AI, TPRM Maturity and the Build vs Buy Decision

What does a successful TPRM transformation actually look like — and why do so many organisations get it wrong?

Mike sits down with Chloe Dellow, TPRM and GRC specialist at Diligent, who brings nearly eight years of experience helping organisations build, mature and optimise their third party risk programmes. Chloe offers a frank, experience-led perspective on why technology should enable a well-defined programme — not compensate for an absent one.

In this episode:

🔍 Why most organisations should sort their operating model before they even open an RFP ⚠️ The "magpie effect" — chasing features before understanding your own problem 🤖 How AI is entering TPRM in phases, from SOC 2 document review to continuous monitoring 🔨 Why the build vs buy debate is back — and the hidden risks of going DIY 🧩 Why AI risk isn't really "emerging", and what that reframing means for your framework ✈️ Which industries actually do supply chain visibility well (aerospace and automotive may surprise you) 🔄 The biggest mistake organisations make when switching platforms — and how to avoid rewriting history

Whether you're just starting out or looking to optimise a mature programme, this is a practical and honest conversation about what good looks like in TPRM today.

Timestamps 00:00 Introduction 02:15 Chloe's background — from JavaScript to TPRM advisory 06:30 How TPRM technology has evolved 11:00 Regulatory pressure and programme maturity 16:45 Helping clients through the "where do I start" problem 23:00 The magpie effect and the risk of over-configuration 29:30 AI adoption in TPRM — phased approaches and real use cases 38:00 Build vs buy — and the shadow AI risk 45:00 Is AI really an emerging risk? 51:30 Supply chain visibility — who gets it right? 58:00 What goes wrong in TPRM transformations 1:04:00 Where to start before you go to market

Guest: Chloe Dellow, Diligent Host: Mike Day

🔔 Subscribe for more episodes | 🌐 thirdpartytherapy.com | 📧 Sign up to the mailing list

#TPRM #ThirdPartyRisk #GRC #RiskManagement #AI #OperationalResilience #DORA #Compliance #Podcast

00:00

55:49

episode artwork

16 June 2026

Third Party Therapy - Dave Rusher - Is TPRM Actually Mature? AI, Cross-Sector Lessons & Getting Started Right

In this episode of Third Party Therapy, Mike Day is joined by Dave Rusher, Chief Customer Officer at Aravo, one of the longest-standing dedicated TPRM technology platforms. With 15 years at Aravo and decades of experience across the Americas, UK, Europe and Asia-Pacific, Dave brings a genuinely global perspective on how third party risk management has evolved — and where it still has growing up to do.

They cover the maturity landscape across financial services, pharma and manufacturing, the real-world AI use cases that are already delivering results, and the three most common mistakes organisations make when implementing TPRM technology. Whether you're just starting your TPRM journey or trying to evolve an existing programme, this episode is packed with practical insight.

Topics covered in this episode:

  • How TPRM maturity differs across financial services, pharma and manufacturing — and why FS and pharma led the way
  • The difference between a US "compliance-driven" approach and a more principles-based European one
  • Why manufacturing actually has a head start on Nth-party visibility and ESG — and what FS can learn from it
  • The cross-sector skills that are genuinely portable (anti-bribery/anti-corruption, cybersecurity) versus those that aren't
  • The consolidation vs. diversification tension in TPRM technology ecosystems
  • Where AI is delivering tangible results today — and why cyber/infosec assessment automation is the most mature use case
  • Why getting AI approved internally is often the biggest blocker to adoption in regulated industries
  • How shadow AI usage by employees is compressing organisations' due diligence timelines
  • Dave's three biggest TPRM implementation pitfalls: overestimating maturity, overcomplicating scope, and over-relying on technology
  • Why iterative, objectives-first implementation beats the traditional ERP-style "big bang" rollout
  • How Aravo is building AI capabilities along two parallel tracks — for customers who are ready and those who aren't yet

Timestamps: 00:00 — Introduction 02:00 — Dave's background and 15 years at Aravo 04:30 — How TPRM maturity varies by sector and region 10:00 — Manufacturing vs. financial services: who's ahead and where 15:30 — Cross-sector lessons: what's portable, what isn't 20:00 — Technology trends: consolidation vs. proliferation 25:00 — AI in TPRM: hype vs. reality 31:00 — The biggest AI use case delivering results today 37:00 — Why internal AI approval processes are the real bottleneck 43:00 — AI as a "tool not a transformation" — Mike's take 47:00 — Aravo's AI development roadmap 53:00 — The three TPRM implementation mistakes to avoid 58:00 — Where to start: outcomes-first, iterative delivery

00:00

54:42

episode artwork

06 April 2026

Third Party Therapy - Prof. Richard Wilding OBE | The Academic Lens on Supply Chain Resilience

How do you build a supply chain that doesn't just survive disruption but thrives through it? Mike Day is joined by Professor Richard Wilding OBE, Emeritus Professor of Supply Chain Strategy, to bridge the gap between academic theory and frontline risk management.

Professor Wilding shares his expert perspective on why the "Cost to Serve" must be applied to risk, how to segment vendors effectively, and why "Robustness" is no longer enough in a volatile global economy.

🕒 Timestamps:

  • 00:00 – Introduction: Bringing the Academic Lens to TPRM.
  • 03:45 – Richard’s journey: From Engineering and the "Brit Industry" to OBE.
  • 14:20 – Why "Efficiency" is a dangerous goal for modern supply chains.
  • 25:10 – Resilience vs. Robustness: What’s the difference?
  • 38:45 – The Cost to Serve: Why you shouldn't treat every vendor the same.
  • 52:30 – Advice for the next generation of supply chain leaders.

SEO Keywords: #SupplyChain #Logistics #Procurement #RichardWilding #RiskManagement #Resilience #Strategy #OBE

00:00

54:16

episode artwork

23 March 2026

Third Party Therapy - Clarence Chio | The Pace of TPRM: Faster Horses or a New Way to Travel?

Is the pace of change in Third-Party Risk Management (TPRM) keeping up with the complexities of the modern marketplace? In this episode of Third Party Therapy, Mike Day sits down with Clarence Chio, founder of Coverbase.

Clarence, a Stanford-trained engineer and cybersecurity veteran, shares his unique perspective on the "assessor fatigue" felt by both sides of the table. They dive deep into how AI can move beyond just making existing processes "faster horses" and instead fundamentally change how trust is established between organizations.

🕒 Timestamps

00:00 – Introduction: Is TPRM falling behind the market?

03:45 – Clarence’s Journey: From Stanford to Anti-Money Laundering (AML)

12:10 – The "Assessor’s Dilemma": Why busy work doesn't always equal risk reduction

21:30 – The Pace of Change: Why traditional assessments are static in a dynamic world

30:50 – AI & Coverbase: Moving from manual checklists to automated trust

38:15 – The "Faster Horse" Problem: Re-imagining the future of TPRM

47:40 – Elevating the Job: How automation allows risk managers to focus on strategy

55:30 – Closing thoughts: Mapping out the next 5 years of TPRM

💡 Key Takeaways

  • The Problem with Static Assessments: Clarence explains why an annual review is often obsolete the moment it's finished and how the pace of software updates requires a new approach to monitoring.
  • Assessor Fatigue: Insight into why critical vendors feel "put through the wringer" and how this friction actually hinders true risk transparency.
  • AI as an Efficiency Engine: How Coverbase uses AI to bridge the gap, allowing for a more holistic and real-time understanding of vendor security postures.
  • Rethinking the Function: Why the industry needs to stop asking for "faster horses" (doing the same manual tasks quicker) and start looking for the "automobile" (fundamentally changing the workflow).

🔗 Connect & Resources

Search & SEO

Keywords: #TPRM #ThirdPartyRisk #ClarenceChio #Coverbase #Cybersecurity #AI #RiskAutomation #VendorManagement #SupplyChainSecurity #ThirdPartyTherapy #Innovation

00:00

57:26

Copyright © Third Party Therapy. All rights reserved.

Powered by